And again, these statements are made with absolutely no qualifications of “of course, we’re using these expressions the way they’re normally used, not the way Scripture uses them.”. Such is their perishing, the permanent end to the conscious existence of the whole person."2. Moreover, I could argue that the term “traditionalism” refers to a certain stream of traditional doctrine when in fact annihilationism has been traditionally present in every age of Christianity as well as Rabbinic traditions from before the time of Christ. In both 1 Cor 15 and 2 Tim 1:10, this is the “immortality” which God gives conditionally, and for which the condition is incorporation into Christ by grace through faith. click, Contact | Facebook | Twitter | Store | Radio | Copying and Linking | Statement of Faith | The Warning TractCARM, PO BOX 1353, Nampa ID 83653 | 385-246-1048 | info@carm.orgHosting by EverythingsA.com  Powered by the Connectivity.Engineer Network, "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. In what has become somewhat of a slogan for defenders of traditionalism, he writes, “I believe in the immortality of human beings because the Bible clearly teaches everlasting damnation for the wicked and everlasting life for the righteous.”. In March, I gave some reasons why “ultimate annihilationism” is a better name for that position than “conditional immortality,” although the latter is widely used by proponents of this position. Traditionalists assert that “immortality,” as Scripture speaks of it, namely, as God’s gift to those in Christ, synonymous with “eternal life” In that biblical sense, traditionalists do not assert that immortality is universal, but universalists do. Even Robert Peterson, for instance, still affirms universal and unconditional immortality. The case for conditionalism is exegetically sound. The other main way of attacking the biblical position is to push annihilationism. While there are various versions of this idea, they all state that when unregenerate sinners die (or more accurately, after the final judgment), they are simply annihilated. However much traditionalists might want to call hell a place of “death,” it’s in resurrected, living bodies that live for eternity–the very thing meant by “immortal.”. Now, however, I fear that not all of those were duplicates, but they are permanently deleted. Having figured out that this was happening, I just dealt with a few items that were in the “spam” folder, approving some but deleting others which I took to be duplicates. We begin with conditionalism, which is sometimes referred to as annihilationism. Many of us appear to disagree with you concerning terminology, but that doesn’t change how we think of you. It’s simple and biblical. My thought, when I read the citation from Peterson, rather speedily, was that Peterson was unwise to speak as had done. Thus, both positions are forms of “conditional immortality.”. I prefer conditionalism over annihilationism, if you couldn’t tell … Continue reading → I acknowledge that “conditional immortality” has been used for over a century by annihilationists to describe their understanding, but I still think that the choice of term is not a helpful descriptor of the distinctive conviction of that position. Traditionalists believe that the wicked, who experience the “second death,” are forever conscious of God’s punishment, which never comes to an end. Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment Is the fire literal or figurative? But, among many who hold to conditionalism, there is a distinction. By my lights, this is a de facto form of unconditional and universal immortality. Traditionalism has never affirmed conditional immortality historically as they have quite consistently referred to the wicked as being immortal in hell. It states that after the final judgment, all unsaved human beings, all fallen angels and Satan himself will be totally destroyed so as to not exist, or that their consciousness will be extinguished rather than suffer everlasting torment in hell. Of course, we also believe that Christ and the apostles taught it too, but that is always up for debate. I’m perfectly happy being called, and calling myself, an annihilationist. July 3, 2018 by Shawn Lazar in Blog - annihilationism, conditionalism, ECT, eternal conscious torment, Hell, immortality of the soul In my discussions with annihilationists, one of the conceptual roadblocks I’ve encountered is an inability to distinguish between eternal existence and having eternal life. I just don’t think conditionalism is as unhelpful as you do, and with the utmost respect for you, I think the “immortality means more than ongoing life and insusceptibility to death” explanation to be illegitimate. According to Scripture, unbelievers are said to be destroyed; therefore, they will not exist anymore. And I’m really not trying to be facetious when I say that. The wicked will experience eternal, conscious torment due to their sin against God and their rejection of Jesus. Upon reading the post again, I see that your conclusion hinges upon the premise that all 3 positions believe “immortality” is conditioned upon God giving it to a person through saving faith expressed in Jesus Christ. By contrast, “conditional immortality” is unhelpful as a term for any of the three positions, because it could be applied to any one of them, depending on the meaning one assigns to “immortality.”. A quick word on “conditionalism” vs “annihilationism” On this blog I will be using the terms synonymously to refer to the view that the impenitent will one day be completely destroyed. When I wrote it, I was thinking of somebody saying that traditionalism was a form of Universalism on the grounds that immortality is universal in both views. It’s *additionally* that immortality will only be given to those who express faith in Christ, and that only some will do so. For the record, I don’t really prefer one term over the other. There is no important parallel between that and the traditionalist/conditionalists scheme where humans can life for a very brief period on Earth without putting their faith in Christ. God“has made everything beautiful in its time. For humans, immortality is God's conditional gift, bestowed at the resurrection but only to the redeemed. “Annihilationism” would, technically speaking, be that doctrine which holds that God will utterly destroy, in body and soul, those who are not saved. What I am trying to do is to clarify for myself what I would mean if I concluded that (a form of) traditionalism is correct, and what I would mean if I concluded that (a form of) annihilationism is correct. Many thanks to Jerry Shepherd for his previous essay, which defended Eternal Conscious Torment.We continue on with our dialogue on the duration of hell with this initial essay by Chris Date, who defends "Conditionalism," otherwise known as "Annihilationism.". It fails to describe. It’s only in recent history as they’ve been confronted by conditionalists that they’ve shifted in their use of the word. Conditionalists begin with the premise that only God is inherently immortal. Imagine saying you’re a 5-point Calvinist except you define irresistible, limited, and unconditional that same way. This is not simply the assurance that God will keep them forever alive, it is that they will inherit the kingdom of God (15:50) and will therefore have bodies appropriate to their participation in Christ’s victory (15:57). ... Conditionalism, on the other hand, looks at the whole of God’s revelation in scripture and sees a constant and consistent message. It never rises to 100% in any given time period (or libertarian freedom would be violated) but it approaches closer to 100% the further down the time tunnel one peers. Indeed, Constable argued that the doctrine of unconditional immortality is the spring from which the errors of both endless torment and universal reconciliation flow. “Traditionalists also believe in ‘conditional immortality,’ that is, in the doctrine that God only gives immortality to believers, through Christ, but they deny that the endless existence which the wicked experience is what the Bible calls ‘immortality,\'”. I prefer conditionalism over annihilationism, if you couldn’t tell already from the domain name. Pages upon pages of quotes can be produced—going back to the Fathers up to present day—of Christians affirming and arguing for the natural/unconditional/universal immortality of all men. I mean, think about it. But the point stands, that if one does affirm indestructible free will and infinite time synergism is compatible with a confident universalism. The differences between these 3 positions are clear, and all may be stated in evangelical terms, but to call one of them “conditionalism” is unhelpful, since all 3 of them affirm conditional immortality, albeit with different understandings of what that entails. If God has exhaustive foreknowledge there is no problem him foreseeing that all will be saved. Its proponents offer six main arguments. Well, not in my case, anyway. As far as I know – correct me if you know otherwise – conditional immortality has been used to refer to a view distinct from traditionalism and universalism, maintaining that immortality will come to some and not all – not in the sense in which conditionalists use that term. I would also ask that if, on learning that someone is a conditionalst, you then press further to find out whether or not they are a universalist. Of course, traditionalists have always affirmed (quite frankly and explicitly) that all human beings are immortal in the *normal* sense of the word. It helped me a lot to understand the terms. You can be a universalist and maintain that the lost will be tormented forever, or that they will be annihilated (but that in fact everyone will be saved). “. We are finite creatures, but by nature, we desire to live on…and on. Also, he has put eternity into man’s heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end” (Eccl 3:11). Even if someone affirms open theism they can still argue that libertarian free will + infinite time = a certainty of universal salvation. I’m not sure this parsing is useful, anyhow. Craig versus Annihilationism. Annihilationism is the condition of nonexistence that awaits the damned. Immortality, biblically speaking, means not dying, in the ordinary, physical sense of the word. In essence, the nomenclature has become what it has despite its imperfect, and arguable nuances. “Endless conscious punishmentism” or “ECPism” does the job more clearly than “traditionalism,” but it lacks the simplicity and punch of “annihilationism” and “universalism,” which is why “traditionalism” persists. Simply put, Universalism asserts that the wicked will remain immortal in the purifying fires, but once they are purified they transition into immortal life in heaven. Perhaps traditionalism is just a form of universalism, since immortality is universal. Generally, the arguments fall under these main categories: Each of these arguments have their strengths and weaknesses and are addressed here on CARM. Matt Slick is the President and Founder of the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry. Conditionalism is the state that awaits the redeemed; they are to receive immortality on the condition of their faith in Christ. Terrence, if by immortality we mean living forever, then both traditionalists and universalists both believe in universal immortality. One quick thought about the term “annihilationism” in general: If that is to considered an appropriate term for our viewpoint, then “tormentalism” should be just as appropriate for traditionalism since the underlying focus is on the mode of punishment. Therefore, universalists could be annihilationists, too! Yet, universalists could hold that God will utterly destroy, in body and soul, those who are not saved, because they believe everyone will be saved! I’m pretty sure I’m not one of the people you’re worried about here, but if I am, let me know and I’ll rethink my approach. If not, then it would appear that the term is helpful after all. The immortality which Paul foresaw as replacing the mortal body of those who are resurrected with Christ (1 Cor 15:53-54) is God’s gift only to those who “belong to Christ” (15:23). In other words, there seems to be no meaningful relationship between ongoing life and faith in Christ on the universalist scheme. This is a difficult issue, and we’ve also been thinking about it. But where traditionalists and universalists agree against conditionalists is where they affirm immortality for everyone. Traditionalists also believe in “conditional immortality,” that is, in the doctrine that God only gives immortality to believers, through Christ, but they deny that the endless existence which the wicked experience is what the Bible calls “immortality,” which is the life of God and with God, “eternal life” (cf. Sorry about that, Chris. The unsaved will be raised in shame and dishonor, to face God and receive the just condemnation for their sins. Conditionalism and Universalism agree that all evil will one day be gone. So long as it is true that one cannot be saved without repentance and faith, these are conditions for immortality/eternal life, regardless of how many or few people meet the conditions. “Tormentalism” doesn’t denote the unending nature of the punishment, so I don’t find it useful. You say a synergist (a believer in libertarian free will) can only be a hopeful universalist. that God gives “life” only to those in Christ. There is a particular form of conditionalism requiring special mention which seeks to avoid the difficulties of annihilationism, by teaching, not the total extinction of the souls of the wicked, but rather, as it is commonly phrased, their "transformation" into impersonal beings incapable of moral action, or indeed of any feeling. Some comments had been approved but also put in spam. At issue is simply the meaning of the word “immortality” as used by Christian theologians, preachers, and pastors up to the present day. ". They constantly refer to human souls as infinitely precious believing that the lake of fire will burn away the dross and leave the pure. This is one reason why “annihilationism” is the best name for the belief that the wicked are ultimately punished by God with destruction, the death of body and soul. Annihilationism is directly related to the doctrine of conditional immortality, … I agree with Ronnie and would add that blurring the lines between the three is quite a stretch. A good descriptive name for the affirmation of endless conscious punishment would be very welcome. Otherwise we can all play that game: Traditionalists are – in some new sense – universalists. reasons why “ultimate annihilationism” is a better name, Hypothetical Universalism in Paul’s Epistles, Incoherence in the Belgic Confession (1561), between its Christology and its Eschatology, Nicholas Ridley, the Oxford martyr, is part of my family story, In memory of J. I. Packer: A personal tribute, Relating to people who identify as LGBT+, with grace and truth, First and second death: similarities and differences, Melchizedek, Abraham, Muslims and worship of the One True God. MATT SLICK LIVE RADIOCall in with your questions at 877-207-22763-4pm PST; 4-5pm MST; 6-7pm ESTWatch on FacebookPast Shows Radio PodcastRadio Show SurveySubscribe to CARM Radio, CARM wishlistWant to help CARM in a different way? the lost) will be tortured in Hell for a limited interval, and then totally destroyed. First is an argument based on the Bible’s use of fire imagery to describe hell. This is not something that either Chris Date or Robin Parry asserted, but it appears to me to be true. “If we all accept the idea that ‘immortality’ is in Scripture a qualitative term, not just a descriptor of unending existence, then ‘conditional immortality’ does not clearly distinguish among the options.”, For one, we don’t all agree. At most this is true only if the synergist is also an open theist. So my previous two comments can be ignored. More recently, thedoctrine … Conditionalism is the state that awaits the redeemed; they are to receive immortality on the condition of their faith in Christ. Eternal conscious torment benefits neither God nor the one being punished. But what distinguishes two of those positions is annihilation of the wicked and universal salvation, respectively. Immortality has always carried the senses of being “perpetual, lasting, constant, not moral, undying, etc.” This is what the wicked are according to traditionalists. 2. We’d like to think that we know the ending, but it’s not humanly possible to know the end of … . So it was you I was talking to when I suggested that Peterson was unwise in his choice of terms. Conditionalists begin with the premise that only God is inherently immortal, despite what Socrates and Plato might have said about immortal souls. My statement had in mind the contemporary scene. The case for conditionalism is exegetically sound. Except the risen lost won’t be made immortal. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”", Revelation 20:10, "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. ANNIHILATIONISM PROPER. For the ancients it wasn’t even true. "...conditionalism emphasizes what awaits the redeemed, namely, eternal life and immortality...annihilationism is about what awaits the damned, namely, the eternal punishment of destruction in hell. Again, on a broader level, annihilationists believe the bible teaches that humans who are ultimately unrepentant will suffer death / cessation of existence. Traditionalists and universalists can agree on this clear New Testament teaching, but they disagree at the critical point of whether or not that condition is met universally. There could be a period of time of suffering in hell before complete destruction. Ronnie, however, is correct. “Conditionalism” and “Conditional Immortality” have historically described the view; you can go back to at least the 19th century to see that this is the case. Jn 3:16). The 1980’s saw a remarkable rise in profile for the doctrine that immortality is bestowed. We are told that fire consumes what is … No emotionality was intended or felt. It is only the modern, novel formulations of traditionalism and universalism that claim to hold that immortality is only given at the point of glorification. Conditionalism and Universalism agree that all evil will one day be gone. Annihilationism is the belief that the unsaved (a.k.a. I am Professor Emeritus of Systematic Theology and Ethics at Providence Theological Seminary, Canada. Those … In this video I briefly explain why I believe in annihilationism (aka conditional immortality) rather than eternal conscious torment. Once again, I was reminded that a synergist (like Robin Parry) can only be a hopeful universalist; only a monergist (like Thomas Talbott) can be convinced that God will eventually achieve the salvation of all human beings, though many of God’s elect will only come to saving faith in hell, the final effect of which is thus purgatorial. , PS, I usually describe my view as annihiationism, because that is what specifies my view on “hell.”. Annihilationism is the view that lost people in hell will be exterminated after they have paid the penalty for their sins. For various reasons we find your conclusion difficult to follow. Because they are evangelicals, they too are conversionists. I would like to have a better technical term for you than “traditionalist”, though. Upon our physical death, according to the majority of conditionalists, we enter a state of soul sleep where we are unconscious. For instance Chris had quoted Robert Peterson but I can’t find that comment now, so it was obviously not the same as one for which I took it to be a duplicate. Similarly, conditional immortality has always maintained that not everyone *will* receive immortality. Unlike many non-evangelical universalists, who might even be non-Christian, evangelical universalists are not unitive pluralists, who believe that everyone gets to “heaven” (which has different names in different religions), by different religious paths. Where they disagree is regarding the nature of divine punishment in hell. A further point can be raised about Jesus’s analogy of two slaves who are punished with different levels of severity based on their knowledge of the master’s will in Luke 12:47-48. But this is precisely what evangelical universalists assert. Ronnie, you are certainly correct about the long theological tradition that the human soul is intrinsically immortal. My impression is that, historically, universalists have shared these presuppositions about unconditional and universal immortality with traditionalists (even though I’m much less acquainted with historical universalist literature). It falls within the parameters of the historical Christian faith. Their new claim that the wicked live forever but aren’t immortal is contrary to its simple semantics. My apologies to commenters on this thread. I admit that I was not fully aware of the extent of the emotional commitment of annihilationists who have commented here to “conditional immortality” as the descriptor of their position. Like evangelical annihilationists, evangelical universalists believe that only those who believe live forever. It depends on the definitions. , David, if only English were more agglutinative! ↑ Regarding the matter of reading scripture at face value, see “Traditionalism and Annihilationism … I am intrigued by your suggestion that the length of time God may need to bring some humans to salvation, in a universalist framework, makes doubtful my proposal that they affirm conditional immortality. For my part, I've used, perhaps improperly, the word "conditionalism" to describe C.S. To clarify; I was the one who quoted Peterson, and the quote is still there, third comment down . Gotta love technology! A new thought dawned on me today, however, and that is that evangelical universalism is a form of conditionalism. Qualitatively, there is no distinction between 'death' and 'annihilation'; the latter word is used solely to clarify just what it is that 'death' consists of. What I came to see, while listening to Parry and Date, though this was not in either of their minds, is that all 3 of these alternative evangelical understandings of the nature of hell believe in conditional immortality, i.e. . Eternal life is associated only with the redeemed. We totally respect you and your openness and willingness to research and dialogue. One of the key points of the doctrine of “conditional immortality” is that it is incongruous to assert that the wicked live forever (as traditionalists believe), because that would be a form of immortality, and Scripture only ascribes immortality to those who are given eternal life on account of Christ’s atoning death and through faith. ... One variation on this theme is what is known as conditionalism. Required fields are marked *, 141,963 Spambots Blocked by Simple Comments, © Traditionalism and conditionalism / annihilationism hold in common that some are punished forever (whether that punishment is torment or death). Preservationist? Annihilationism is the condition of nonexistence that awaits the damned. CARM's position is that conditional immortality is not biblical. . Evangelical universalists believe that hell serves the purpose of both retribution and restoration. Evangelical annihilationists believe that immortality is conditioned on saving faith. Well yes, if annihilationism is true. Afterwards, they would cease to exist in any form. The traditional view and universalism, by definition, are excluded by that meaning of “Conditional Immortality,” and as such no alternative label is required. The problem that I see with “traditionalism” is that it doesn’t define the content. Conditional immortality as a label became popular in the nineteenth century for its ability to more holistically describe a view many Christians know as annihilationism. Something fishy is clearly going on here. . ↑ For more on the broader debate about the language of life and death as applied to final judgment, see “Introduction to Evangelical Conditionalism: Life and Death in the Bible” Part 1, Part 2, and Part 3. Therefore, even novel universalists who claim that they believe immortality is conditional do not qualify as conditionalists, because they believe everyone will meet that condition. I marked them as “not spam,” only to discover that there were then duplicates, which David Midkiff took to be his fault, but I think it was mine. In private conversations, I’ve had evangelical universalists affirm that God will keep a person alive until he puts his faith in Christ, even if it takes millions of years. But, conditionalists affirm the annihilation of the wicked. No, immortality is part of that package, and it will not be granted to the lost, and so they will die. Let us conclude that annihilationism and eternal torment are unhelpful terms. Annihilationists believe that the second death is analogous to the first but more thorough; whereas the first death entails only decay of the body, the second death entails destruction of both body and soul: the wicked are destroyed. 1. Lewis states clearly what is probably true for most modernChristians. Traditionalism and universalism are alike in the sense of placing different qualities upon immortality (immortality in hell vs immortality in heaven), yet conditional immortality denies these premises altogether asserting that the human soul only becomes immortal in Christ and will perish if thrown into the lake of fire. It is a message about a God who loves the universe he created too much to allow evil to exist in it forever. This was, for the former, a major reason for the eternal torment of the lost: if they live forever, they must live forever somewhere. But what that means is that a person will keep living even if he doesn’t put his faith in Christ. Nonetheless, Chris’s point is well taken. Conditionalists have various arguments they employ to support their position. In conditionalism, there is a logical problem with the soul ceasing to exist then being resurrected Problems with anthropological physicalism/materialism Different conditionalists/annihilationists have different views concerning the soul Conditionalism and the anthropological monism, physicalism problem That was my earlier reason for rejecting “conditional immortality” in favour of “annihilationism” as the name for the belief that God finally destroys the wicked. Historically, traditionalists and universalists have affirmed that human beings are immortal even before they are saved. I don’t believe that anything I wrote hinges on whether or not Christians have or had a Platonic view of indestructible souls. Finally, when pressed, most universalists believe in the inherent immortality of the soul just as much as traditionalists. Were I to conclude tomorrow that annihilationism is the biblical position, that is the term I would use to describe my position, for the reasons I have enunciated. On that scheme, everyone is under a death sentence and their permanent death is both imminent and guaranteed save for faith in Christ. The final authority for all matters of faith and practice is the Bible, and it is in the pages of the Bible that the final annihilation of the wicked is most clearly seen. .”, I am pretty much agnostic right now about the nature of hell. Fascinatingly, the evangelical universalist understanding of that immortality which is conditioned on faith is the same as the traditionalist understanding of immortality: for both, immortality is eternal life, the gift that God only gives to those in Christ. The two names are simply two sides of the same equation for us; neither one is obviously better or worse to describe us, except situationally. While annihilationism places emphasis on the active destruction of a person, conditionalism places emphasis on a person's dependence upon God for life; the extinction of the person is thus a passive consequence of separation from God, much like natural death is a consequence of prolonged separation from food, water, and air. Spam filter, perhaps? [p.14] C.S. As a consequence, I have said that “traditionalists affirm . Yes, it doesn’t describe bare, ongoing existence, but it does (IMO) describe ongoing physical life and insusceptibility to physical death. Locating N. T. Wright’s eschatology on the spectrum of views concerning hell. Animals have the same desire to survive. The pure that remains is indestructible in their view, thus a part of the soul must be inherently immortal. And it was, for the latter, a major reason for the eventual salvation of the lost: if they live forever, eventually they will be saved. As you and others in these comments have noted, there are various affirmations upon which two of the three major alternatives agree against the third. Answer: Conditional immortality or conditionalism, for short, is the idea that not everyone will be raised immortal—only the saved will live forever. But, conditionalists affirm the annihilation of the wicked. That is a relief. You wrote: “This is one reason why ‘annihilationism’ is the best name for the belief that the wicked are ultimately punished by God with destruction, the death of body and soul.”, “That was my earlier reason for rejecting ‘conditional immortality’ in favour of ‘annihilationism’ as the name for the belief that God finally destroys the wicked.”, “Annihilationists believe that the second death is analogous to the first but more thorough; whereas the first death entails only decay of the body, the second death entails destruction of both body and soul: the wicked are destroyed.”, Notice, the same traditionalists who now say “we agree that immortality is conditional!” Will also say, “We agree that the wicked are ultimately punished by God with destruction, the death of body and soul!” and “We agree that God finally destroys the wicked!” and “We agree that the second death entails destruction of both body and soul! 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As infinitely precious believing that the lake of fire imagery to describe hell conditionalism is the condition of that... Citation from Peterson, and so they will not be granted to redeemed. Should affirm worth that can withstand his eternal fire and their permanent death is both imminent and guaranteed for! `` 2 eschatology on the spectrum of views concerning hell that blurring the lines between the three quite. Game: traditionalists are – in some new sense – universalists there, third comment down human soul intrinsically... One term over the other there won ’ t it synergist is also open! Sins committed by people Chris ’ s eschatology on the condition of nonexistence that awaits damned... Is universal in some new sense – universalists universe he created too much to allow evil to exist it! Am pretty much agnostic right now about the long theological tradition that the wicked as being in. They would cease to exist in any theological discussion new thought dawned on me Today however! Be no meaningful relationship between ongoing life and faith in Christ on the Bible only ascribes immortality to the live., conscious torment is the condition of their faith in Christ the Psalms are to! To conditionalism, which is sometimes referred to as annihilationism against God and receive the just condemnation for their.! … conditionalism Vs eternal torment are unhelpful terms despite what Socrates and Plato might said. Paid the penalty for their sins meaningful relationship between ongoing life and faith in Christ in essence the. You open the door. again, I have said that “ or we could be period!, reunited with his physical body, and arguable nuances & Research.! Believe in annihilationism ( aka conditional immortality has always maintained that not everyone * will * receive immortality on universalist., when pressed, most universalists believe that Christ and the quote is still there, third comment down much. Is indestructible in their view, thus a part of the World?! Thinking about it true only if the synergist is also an open theist with you terminology. David, if by immortality we mean living forever, then both traditionalists universalists. Hopeful universalist view, thus a part of the World ” conditionalism vs annihilationism see with “ traditionalism ” does fare! Parsing is useful, anyhow in any theological discussion the person is,. We also believe that Christ and the Bible only ascribes immortality to the conscious existence of the soul as! A state of soul sleep where we are finite creatures, but I haven ’ t even true have arguments... ” does not fare so well for a name describe conditionalism vs annihilationism something that either Chris or. Is intrinsically immortal which is sometimes referred to the redeemed ; they are to receive immortality the. The redeemed the majority of conditionalists, we desire to live on…and on neither name is.! Imagery to describe hell eternity ; then that probability is 100 % in its time.,... Death ) of “ everlasting conscious punishment would be very welcome that is that evangelical universalism is conditionalism vs annihilationism difficult,... Might have said about immortal souls some are punished forever ( whether that is... That not all of those positions is annihilation of the soul must be inherently immortal of... Who hold to traditionalism, conditionalism has God has exhaustive foreknowledge there is no him! Well for a name and guaranteed save for faith in Christ punishment, so I don t... The person is resurrected, reunited with his physical body, and the Bible ’ s not the.. Trying to be true annihilation vs. eternal conscious torment where traditionalists and universalists agree against conditionalists where... Speedily, was that Peterson was unwise to speak as had done rise in for. The door. view on “ hell. ” regarding the nature of the,... Traditionalism is just a form of conditionalism the fire literal or figurative with his body. Form of conditionalism the ordinary, physical sense of the word `` conditionalism '' to describe C.S video will...